At Mindmaven, we’re big fans of Asana for efficient project management. But nothing quite motivates a team to produce maximum output like extraordinary team leadership.
That’s why, in this installment of our Human First Leadership series, we’re thrilled to be joined by former Chief Marketing Officer of Asana, Dave King.
Our very own Mindmaven Founder and CEO, Patrick Ewers, sits down with Dave to reveal the profound impact of excellent team leadership on his career.
Plus, how you can instill belief in your team that produces Superpowered results and career highs.
What Is the Difference Between Managing and Leading?
Kicking things off, Patrick reminisces about a gem Dave dropped during their first chat about team leadership.
Patrick: “You said, ‘As a leader, if you do not care about the people that follow you, they won’t care about you, and there’s absolutely no way you will ever get the highest performance out of that team.‘
That is such a profound realization. What journey were you on to get to that particular conviction?”
Dave explains: “A lot of people conflate the role of a manager with the role of a leader.
A manager is a position that is given to you. A leadership role is an act; it’s an action. It’s a series of activities that you do.
At the heart of leadership, I think it’s really two things:
- First is, how do you help the people that you are leading achieve their full potential?
- And secondly, how do you help the collective team make progress toward a shared mission or vision?
I always think, ‘How can I become the leader that I would like to have?’
What Is the Best Definition of a Good Leader?
When we think about how we can exercise excellent team leadership, we can often look to the examples of our past leaders – the good, the bad, and the truly inspiring.
Dave shares his own real-life experiences on both sides of the team leadership spectrum and how they helped him shape the kind of leader he is today.
Dave: “I’ve been fortunate; I’ve had some amazing leaders to model after that I aspire to be as good as.
I’ve also been lucky to have some leaders who are just awful.
A funny story for you – my first role out of college, I went to work for a Wall Street investment bank.
I’m thinking at the time, ‘This is the pinnacle of capitalism and efficiency. These organizations are so well run, I’m going to learn about great business and management and leadership.’
I had this boss who sat in the corner office, literally and proverbially, and he had a hunting whistle that he would blow to call what he called resources to his office.
One whistle was for analyst, and two whistles was for associate. When he blew that, everybody had to race to the door of his office to receive orders that would be barked at you for work.
He would refer to people or team members, not as people or their names but as resources. So he’d yell out of his office, ‘I need resources!‘ And you would have to go run in there.
I almost kind of laughed at it; how crazy this was. I’m like, ‘Is this really what corporate America is all about?‘”
What Does It Mean To Believe in Your Team?
Dave shares how team leadership that sees the gold in your team, even when they can’t see it themselves, can lead to wins all around.
Dave: “I had another manager, same job, who I think showed me the contrast. He had irrational belief in my potential, more belief than I think I had in myself.
He would put me in these scenarios that, frankly, I didn’t think I was ready for, and then he would have my back.
I remember he took me to this big board presentation with the chairman of the board for a big merger and acquisition proposal.
I have my role in the meeting, and I’m presenting something, and the chairman of the board stops the meeting, and he says, ‘How old are you anyways? Are you 12?‘ I was probably 22 at the time.
I just kind of froze, and my manager jumped in. He said, ‘Actually, Dave’s one of our top analysts in the firm. All this work that you’re seeing, he uncovered a lot of insights about your business and I think you’re going to want to hear what he has to say.‘
To me, that was so motivating. The same manager showed up to my wedding, and I’ve received a Christmas card from him every year for the past 20 years. I’m still in touch with him.
It was helpful to have both models and to say, ‘I aspire to be the kind of leader that cares about the people that you’re fortunate enough to lead.‘
I’m grateful to have those examples, and I don’t always live up to them, but that’s what I aspire to.”
How Do You Maximize Team Potential?
Dave’s journey through the corporate world is packed with lessons on team leadership and betting big on your team’s potential.
Patrick dives deeper into Dave’s early career at Salesforce, uncovering more about his experience with inspiring team leadership.
Dave: “This goes back to one of the core attributes of leaders, is having irrational belief in your team’s potential.
It turns out it’s not so irrational when you know that that person has it in them – they just don’t know it themselves.
I was doing product strategy at Salesforce. I was in the health and life sciences space, and there was a big, big deal that they had called one of the presidents of the company out to go present at this deal, and he couldn’t make it.
They needed to send somebody else, and my manager said, ‘Oh. Send Dave!‘ And they’re like, ‘Dave? Who’s Dave?‘ I was the product strategy manager in the back room.
He said, ‘Oh yeah, Dave’s incredible with CIOs and with customers, and he will be fantastic in that deal.‘
I had never met a CIO in my life. But it was that manager, for whatever reasons, both had the confidence that I could do it and portrayed that confidence to his colleagues.
We went, and we did a great job and we made the customer successful.
It stuck with me, and it’s something I have tried to do with my teams to pay it forward where I see someone who has potential and aptitude, where I know that they are trying to develop in this certain area.”
Who Are Good Leaders in Real Life?
Ever wondered what sets impactful team leadership apart in the real world?
Dave and Patrick discuss pragmatic team leadership insights into giving your team members the stage to shine and pushing them just far enough out of their comfort zone to discover their true capabilities.
Dave: “I think the best thing you can do – not necessarily teach, not necessarily coach… It’s put them in the position where they can learn and develop and build their confidence.
And do it in a way where the risk of failure is quite small. They may perceive the risk of failure to be huge, but it’s actually not.
I have found it’s been one of the most rewarding things when former team members take their next job, and they get a big promotion, and they say, ‘Hey, remember that time when you made me do this? That really launched my career forward.’
I always kind of look for those opportunities …
Where can I have irrational belief and put them in a situation where they can show off their potential?”
The Importance of Pushing Your Comfort Zone and Embracing Discomfort
Patrick: “That’s really interesting. The learning lesson from listening to those stories is that you and your life experience had two situations, and in both situations, you are put into a state of deep discomfort:
One was a depowering, demeaning, diminishing type of discomfort.
And the other one was probably even more uncomfortable because you’re like, ‘Holy shit! If I don’t do this, I’m going to like …‘ You know, really step up your discomfort, pushing your boundaries.
Maybe even pushing you beyond what you think your boundaries are – which is really the feedback that you like getting is what you’re doing.
So the message of Human First Leadership that I’m getting from you is it’s actually okay or even encouraged to put people into discomfort.
But you have to do it from a point of encouragement, from a point of empowerment, and from one where your position is one of wanting to make that person succeed.”
Dave: “Yes, absolutely. I think that’s where the growth happens – where you’re learning by doing.”
How Do You Recruit a High-Performance Team?
Below, Dave unveils his team leadership strategies for identifying and attracting the talent that forms the backbone of any successful project.
Dave: “When you’re working with really high-performing people, I always say my goal: I always hire people who are better at their craft than I am.
If they’re not better than me, then why add them to the team?
They’re all better, so it’s not you as a leader trying to teach and coach …
It’s how do you put them in a position where they can do something even more remarkable than you could do yourself.
But doing it with the safety net – you help with the preparation. You create the environment where they can shine.
If things things don’t go right, it’s your response. You take the responsibility for it.”
Hiring Tip – Align Candidate’s Goals With Team Roles
Dave: “One of the things that is so important is learning. I think most people are intrinsically motivated, but it’s tapping into figuring out what people actually care about.
What do they want to learn? What do they want to do? What is the next step in their career?
I think that starts in the hiring process. Whenever I’m meeting people, I’ll ask them, ‘Hey, what do you want to do after this role? This role is a great one, but how do you envision your life and your career unfolding? What’s the skill you want to develop here?‘
If we can align their experience in a way that projects them towards their goal.
- They’re just going to enjoy the work.
- They’re going to do a much better job and find it much more fulfilling.”
Why Showing You Care Sets Your Team Up for Success
As we all know, building a great team doesn’t end at the hiring process. Dave and Patrick share their team leadership insights into ensuring your team feels valued and creating a thriving community workplace.
Patrick: “That pragmatic tip that you just gave around starting this process, even before a person decides to join the organization.
It’s not only powerful because it sets you up to be the leader they need …
It might actually make you win the better person (even though that person might have a lot of other opportunities) just because you show in an action-based type of way that you care about their future.”
Dave explains how setting your team up for success continues after they’re hired: “We had this business partner on our team who is just phenomenal. The heart and soul of our team.
She has a little survey for every new hire that comes on the team.
They fill out this document about:
- What their favorite foods are
- What their kids’ names are
- What they like to do on the weekends
- How they like to be recognized
- Is it public praise?
- Is it gifts?
And she has this documented for every single person on the team. On their birthday, they would get a treat that they enjoyed.
Come holiday time, she had a personal gift for each person on the team wrapped and a team party to just celebrate as a team.
So, taking the time to figure out what people care about. Sometimes I don’t do this naturally, but she was so methodical, and it really created this incredible team connection and morale.”
Patrick adds: “One of the cheapest and best ways to be a Human First Leader, and in my view, the most successful version of a manager you can be is basically by showing people you care about them.
It’s simple. It is small details like recognizing people for their work rather than praising them.
A lot of people think you have to praise them all the time. No, people don’t need to be praised.
They just want to be recognized.
As a manager, as a leader that is growing, you have a lot of responsibilities onto you. You probably have a lot of urgency in your life; it’s just the nature of many of those roles.
The sad thing that then happens is that the important but non-urgent things often take a step back. Like showing people that you care about them.”
What Is the Most Important Resources Available to a Leader?
If you want to show your team you care but simply don’t feel like you have the time to do so, it’s vital you leverage the resources available to you.
Up next, Patrick and Dave discuss the tools in a leader’s arsenal that can make all the difference.
Patrick: “It doesn’t have to be on your shoulders necessarily to show that care. Now, you cannot do all of that through somebody like your business partner …
If you have a resource like a Chief of Staff or you have a resource like an EA, they can actually be instrumental in helping you deliver experiences that you actually want to do but seem to be too busy, too urgency-driven, to be able to do so.”
Dave: “A hundred percent. I think that is spot on.
I think back to my definition of a leader. People who are leaders genuinely care. You genuinely, you absolutely care. If you don’t, you’re a manager. You’re just doing a job.
So you genuinely care, but the demands are so great that you just don’t get around to all those things that are important but not urgent.
We had this wonderful business partner program at Asana, where our Executive Assistants were they are just world-class. They help create these systems to do things like I mentioned.
That’s what I loved about your book – these nice tactical ways to execute what we all intend to do, but we just run out of time for.”
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How Do I Start To Be a Leader?
Patrick and Dave share their wisdom on transitioning from manager to leader and how to ensure your team sees you as the inspiring leader you aim to be.
Patrick: “You said something so powerful that I think is exceptionally profound …
There’s this dichotomy between managers and leaders. People that are starting on their career and that are growing and they’re now getting into this role of being a leader or a manager.
I would say 90 percent of them want to be a leader. But many of them end up becoming a manager because they are letting themselves be driven by things that are urgent, by tactical execution, by whatever needs to be done.
You might feel on the inside a leader because that’s who you want to be. But the way others around you will experience you is based on the sum of all interactions they have with you.
The advice I want to extract from what you just gave us here is:
If you want to be a leader, what you need to do is figure out a way to basically make sure that people around you experience interactions with you that make you a leader in their eyes.
That’s the only way you will ever become a leader.
Otherwise, you’re going to be banging your head against the fact that you will stay a manager – and a manager will never scale as well as a leader.”
Listen to Your Team With Retention Interviews
Why wait for exit interviews to find out what’s on your team’s mind? Dave’s all for retention chats – a genius team leadership move to keep the conversation flowing and the feedback coming.
Dave: “The question is, ‘How do you know how you’re being perceived, and how do you know how your team is reacting to you?‘
One of the things I learned from one of my team… you’ve heard of the concept of an exit interview.
She’s like, ‘Why would you wait till they exit to do the interview? You can’t do anything then.’
So she has a thing that she calls retention interviews where every quarter, every six months, she sits down with her team member, and she asks a series of questions:
- ‘Describe the last time you thought about quitting the team or the company.‘
- ‘Hey, what’s the behavior that I do that makes you feel least rewarded, or it makes you the most angry or the most frustrated?‘
- ‘When’s a time that you have felt rewarded or recognized from one of my behaviors?‘
She just straight up asks them. I was like, ‘Gosh, that’s such a great idea.’ But you would never think, why not ask them?”
Patrick: “Also, why do it at a time when there’s basically nothing you can do? You can’t course correct anymore because the decision has been made. It’s fantastic.
Again, it shows a level of care. I wouldn’t ask this question if I didn’t want you to stay here, right? If I don’t think you will be wildly successful here, and so on and so forth.
It’s uncomfortable to say, ‘Hey, are you actually still committed to this?‘
But you then go through the experience of talking about it with your manager, and it’s okay – it feels comfortable. You’re basically reducing what I call the bullshit level in corporate America.”
How To Create Loyalty Through Team Leadership
Wrapping things up, Dave and Patrick touch on how open dialogue, instilling belief, and showing genuine care can transform a team.
It’s not just about the big wins; it’s about practicing team leadership that makes everyone feel seen and appreciated for the unique skills and experience they bring to the table.
Patrick: “Many people in corporate America are being asked to parse out what is being said to them because what is being said is not what the person necessarily means, so you constantly have to expend all this energy.
‘Okay, what is between the lines here?‘
But if you are starting to talk this straight up with people, they get comfortable with not trying to communicate something without saying it. They’re going to start saying it.
To me, that is one of the biggest gifts you can give somebody at work – that they can just be themselves, talk what they want, and not fear the repercussions.
That is a fantastic way of leading in a very humane way. Even though you’re forcing people, yet again, to experience something that might be very uncomfortable.”
Dave: “Of course, and as a leader, it’s very uncomfortable to ask a team member, ‘Hey, what is it that I’m doing that really gets on your nerves?‘
But oftentimes, these things are so small where you’re like, ‘Gosh, that’s so easy to fix. Of course, we can fix that.‘ It creates that bond, that loyalty.
It also opens the door to pointing out issues in the business. ‘Hey, this thing with our customers kind of broken …‘
When you don’t have that – call it psychological safety, call it candor – oftentimes those things never get surfaced.”
Become a Superpowered Leader With Our New Book, Radical Delegation
Chatting with Dave King has been a journey through the ins and outs of exceptional team leadership.
But let’s face it: delivering great experiences and showing you care requires time – a resource that often feels in short supply.
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